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Rick Jorgensen

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Reply with quote  #16 
William,
Where I would agree with your scenario is if fishing a particularly nasty run where you may need a wading staff, then you are not stripping as you move down. But I rarely use a staff and generally I am ready for my next cast by the time I have stepped down and positioned myself even when casting 80 to 90 feet  with a short Skagit setup.
William Olson

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Reply with quote  #17 
Rick,

Same deal for me when fishing heads of any nature...where you can get most of the line retrieved by the time your feet are settled.  Depending on how much running line you are handling...not all the line will be retrieved and certainly not always by the time your steps are complete.  But the point I was pondering (and I haven't fished a mid head with tips for winter steel for some time) is using a midhead to cast that same 80'.  Rather than stepping and stripping you have already made your cast, set the presentation and can now step into the swing (walking the dog) with whatever cadence you desire.  Or you can just make the cast while you are stepping.  I do that all the time.  You adjust to the timing and just go while on the move.  No matter which way you cut it, stripping line takes the fly out of the water.  Sometimes it is absolutely needed (and wanted) to strip running line (for many reasons).  The thread isn't about 'either/or', just about thinking what I have been doing and why.  If capable, adjust the head length to match the situation to limit the amount of stripping.  Sometimes that will also require a rod length change, sometimes not.  Whether we are fishing dryline or tips, how heavy and long if fishing tips, how big of flies we want to fish, our moods, doing things differently that day 'just because'...tinker tinker or just relax...         

Erik Helm

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Reply with quote  #18 
I so very clearly remember fishing with you William when I had swallowed the skandi koolaid about easy distance. The distance was fine @ over 100' but the bloody stripping just became a PITA at distance. 50'...fine! 90'+ not so fine. I remember watching you with the old T&T/XLT rig and did some mental timing myself. You made nearly exactly 2 casts for my one. Meanwhile, and this is the key to your excellent discovery, your FLY WAS IN THE ZONE MUCH LONGER than mine. Hmmmm....

Interesting thought provoker....

I don't see this as an argument between long lines and short lines as much as a discovery processes in casting and the swing. All these important facts should be pondered. We dismiss them at our peril.

Some of the same analogies can be drawn to spin-fishing vs. fly-fishing (think single-hand).

For years we read about how spin fishing could be better in certain circumstances, but fly-fishing, because of the lack of need to reel the entire line in between casts, could keep the fly in the water and in the zone longer. What we are doing with all this running line is effectively what a spinning reel does, albeit storing it differently' and then shooting it back out. Given a fixed amount of line and a cast of 30' to a log where a fish lives, the fly fisher has the advantage as long as the head length and his or her ability allow the carrying of 30' of line outside the guides. Pick it up and pop it out there again. The spin-fisherman has to reel in the same amount of line every time. The result is that the fly guy has his 'lure' in the zone over 3 times longer.

Food for thought.

And yes, there are many scenarios where this does not come off such as 2 feet of back-cast room etc. But the general physics seem solid.

Interesting stuff.

Fly-fishing and thinking go together.

Erik 




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Dennis Kulhanek

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hello, Eric                                                                                                                             Please excuse my ignorance! Your quote state, with Scandi kool aid the bloody stripping become PITA at distance 50' Anyhow I calculate my numbers do not add up. Even with very bad set up for example 4/5 Scandi line at 29', 10' rod, 10' leader, 1' overhang, there is not need for any stripping. More proper should be 13- 131/2'. 7/8 rod, 34' line, 1 1/2' overhang, and minimum 15' leader I come to 62' linear distance without any stripping. No?  Casting over 100' I think Scandi rod and line is not very good choice. 
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Poppy Cummins

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
I don't see this as an argument between long lines and short lines as much as a discovery processes in casting and the swing.

The above is what it should be but my experience has been that is not always the case. 

When several spey bums have been camped in my pasture there is always some talk of casting and head length but there isn't so much the undertone of one style is better then the other. The interweb is the only place these discussion seem to sometimes get heated. In my opinion the arguing that has gone on on some other forums has done little to enlighten most of us.

As to stripping I will say I hate stripping line but on my favorite rods that I use the most I do cast scandi and skagit heads because the man that made those rods tells me that is what they were designed for. I know they will cast some longer lines because we have done it and some of my friends have done it well but I always have a feeling in my heart that doing something contrary to the maker's recommendation is wrong.

As to time I will say I may feel differently if I lived a lot of miles from a good steelie river but since I don't time means very little to me. It no longer matters how long the cast takes. It's not a bass tournament. 

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Ken Campbell

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Reply with quote  #21 
It's not a bass tournament. I couldn't agree more. In fact, I haven't agreed with anything this strongly in a long time. My time on the river is timeless.
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Bruce Kruk

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Reply with quote  #22 
Bass tournament......thats the best one yet, god help me if I ever start counting strips of line if I enjoy casting what Im casting, kind of like counting numbers of fish[rolleyes]
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Poppy Cummins

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Reply with quote  #23 
I totally agree with what William says that the longer lines, if one is proficient at casting them are more time economical then the short heads. I personally just don't care any longer about the time lost.

   

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Rick Jorgensen

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Reply with quote  #24 
Poppy - do you sell those fish clickers   - I need to get me one!!!

I hate rushing through a run. One of my mentors says it is all about enjoying what you are doing - I love  casting and just being out and love catching fish but I can count many trips where I have come up empty and not one of them would I consider anything but a success - well except for the trip last winter where I did a face plant on rocks running to take a photo of a friend's first 2 hander caught steelhead - cut right through my lower lip - shattered 2 front teeth (actually shattered the bone they are hooked to and sort of just shoved them up an inch or so).

However, it could have been worse. I did not break my rod or camera and still got photos of the guy's fish while I was spitting blood and tooth parts. The good news is last month I returned to "Split Lip Run" and hooked a nice buck around 8#!!!!

Poppy Cummins

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Reply with quote  #25 
No I don't sell fish clickers.

A couple days ago I watched one of your mentors test cast a line for me. We spent a lot of time talking about several topics related to this subject among other things related to casting two handers. I had a very enjoyable time.

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Poppy=Red Shed Spey Rod Pimp http://www.redshedflyshop.com FRSCA-Founding Member How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
William Olson

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Reply with quote  #26 
You guys can go bassmasters/competitive fish counter route, paint me however you see fit...all I see is bonus time for doing the same activity.  I make no apology for enjoying my fishing.  Fully get the various stages one is at in their fishing...and I will say it one last time...the information was put forth as it applies to my fishing, satisfying a curiosity.  None of it has to apply to you, your way or your enjoyment.  Next time I will keep my f-n mouth shut.   
Dennis Kulhanek

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Reply with quote  #27 
Hello, William                                                                                                                            There is not need to get offended. You stress your opinion and nobody say you are wrong and should be glad that your post created interest. Forum is a discussion and when some respond and express their opinion is anything wrong with that? When most of us see color red. Someone see it differently Is he wrong? May be not!
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Rick Jorgensen

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Reply with quote  #28 
William - Poppy's statement says it all -
How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB  

 and I certainly do not want you keeping your mouth shut. I enjoyed your post and read it carefully and finally agreed with some of what you say under some circumstances! For much of my fishing, I do not think I lose much time due to stripping a as I have said, I normally have completed this by the time I step down. I normally do not cast while I am stepping down which as you indicate could be done and if that were the case, I could get additional casts in.

Poppy indicated if he gets a few less casts in no big deal, I feel the same way but that is not to say that a few more casts in a day might have made the difference between a hook up or not. You description and comments are totally legit and valid and for many it makes great sense.

I did get a kick out of the bass comment!!


PS - the reason I found your post interesting and why I questioned it is I had the same thoughts you did a few years ago when I was reading many posts about hating the short Skagit game and all the required stripping so I did my own tests to see what impact that might have on my day of fishing and that is when I figured out for my typical approach it did not have a huge impact. I typically move through a run by taking 3 to 4 steps or more as opposed to folks that may take only one or two- especially during summer/fall so there is a delay between casts as I step down and my stripping does not much come into play. As I mentioned, this goes out the window if I need to use a wading staff. so My original comments were based on my own observations from a few years ago.

Best,
R
Jason Bates

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Reply with quote  #29 
I only rarely feel that I'm "wasting time" while fly fishing, and that's usually only when I'm having vehicle trouble, or have gotten lost on some back road.  To me the stripping of line is really not the biggest concern in terms of sucking time from having my fly in the zone.  For me (just me, and my humble opinion), the biggest concern there, once I'm actually in the water, would be time where my fly is not fishing well.  One thing I really do love about longer lines is the control of the swing at greater distances, which does usually equate to more time actually "fishing".  If someone with a far more scientific mind than I were to examine the amount of time that we spend fishing with our fly presenting well in fishy water I would expect that the numbers wouldn't likely be so great for a lot of us (me anyways).  I think that spending a lot of time figuring out ideal casting positions, angle, length of cast, mending, etc would pay off hugely for anyone newer to swinging flies.  Stripping in some line? no big deal for me, as long as I can avoid the good ol' running line tangles.  Talk about eating up some quality fishing time!  I seem to get better at avoiding those with practice, but I still get some doozies from time to time.  

On the other hand, sometimes slowing down and having some time between casts, and swings gives me some time to reflect.  Some of those contemplative moments have given me glimpses of something truly special,  and sometimes those moments have given rise to some of my more "innovative" theories (bound to change the game of steelheading as we know it no doubt... just as soon as a few more steelies get with the program).  Then of course there are times for a bit of a break here and there, or perhaps a longer walk through the woods to another run even; sometimes that break gives just a little more juice to the batteries, and a bit sharper eye and a little more sensitive trigger finger when I cast again.

All those are just me and my newly formed thoughts on the matter, and should in no way influence, nor discourage anyone else from fishing as they see fit.  I also like reading posts on technique, and presentation thoughts from others regardless of whether or not those thoughts and methods ring 100% true for me personally.  Hope no one ever feels the need to keep their mouth shut in that respect here.
Cheers, JB
Erik Helm

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Reply with quote  #30 
Topher,
Love the golf club analogy. Thank you for that one!

Erik

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