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Barny Wong

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Reply with quote  #1 
A customer had contacted the store seeking advice after reading somewhere on Airflo's site that he should drop weight for his Skagit head when going from floating to intermediate sink.

He wanted advice when applying to Skagit iflight.

I casted the Echo 3 Seven weight rod with a 510 grain head. A little too heavy for my liking but it got the butt going and release was clean.

I then tried it with a 450 grain iflight. It felt a little underloaded, but it seem everything was bogged down as if the casting cogs had molasses than oil.

Anyone had done this comparison?

I know there are two camps of thought from perusing the other site, so binary responses should be pointing to those camps.

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Poppy Cummins

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Reply with quote  #2 
I'm not sure why you would drop 2 sizes when /Larimer/Rajeff only recommends dropping one size.

Be that as it may most of my customers discussing this topic and trying dropping down a size or keeping the same weight as their floating skagit seemed to be happier when staying with the same weight as their floating skagit. We have tried this experiment with 5 or 6 different customers and I have concluded that while not everyone agrees more agree with keeping the same weight.

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Barny Wong

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Reply with quote  #3 

Thanks for the response Poppy. Thanks for the canvassing results. This is interesting.

The 60 grain weight drop was simply because of convenience. I had a 450 iflight in my possession which had loaded my Echo Scandi 2 (with the stiffer D tip) well. If I remember right, I think this ES2 was rated to handle a 500-550 or so grain floating head.

PS: The Es2 8 weight has suddenly caught me eye throwing this 450 iflight. It had been sitting around for a while not getting any love. Now this rod/ line combo is such delight to throw, esp slowing down the presentation when lined as a Versa tipped head. But I do feel the Echo 3 vs Echo 2 performance difference wrt to material performance, recovery, and lightness (thorough bred vs. a mule).

I find a Snap T or Z works better than the Circle C as it produces less pronounced bloody L to straighten out during the fwd cast.

I had an after thought about the casting gears with molasses. It feels to me that the ES2 with the D tip works the lower sections of the rod than the less stiff Echo 3 when using iflight. This then seem to maneuver the iflight with greater authority when repositioning the line just before the half-out-and-go stage. Whereas the iflight bogs down the Echo 3 tip more, requiring a more careful timing and extra recovery time.

Also, I found slowing down will tear the line from water surface (read good)  Any faster will end up scooping water (read bad) which makes it harder to get the line to line up in parallel rails. This extra wait time to form the dee loop also makes it harder to keep the Dee loop energized.

And I think Airflo's drop by one weight class going to intermediate could be to lessen this bog down effect.  So far, I prefer a stiffer tip. I am getting a Skagit 500 flight to see if no weight shedding works for me.



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Rick Jorgensen

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Reply with quote  #4 
I kept the same 575 grains on my Scott 1287 and it handles fine. I personally would not drop down
Gene Larson

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Reply with quote  #5 
I've never thought that much about it since my experience with intermediate tips is still in the formative state.  But, since water-loaded casts will predominate with both, I don't see why I'd want to drop down a size.  The only reason I come up with is that the floater is too heavy to begin with.  I'm pretty happy with lines 30 grains lighter than what the charts recommend.  
Poppy Cummins

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Reply with quote  #6 
The reasoning to drop down a size is that an intermediate/sinking line has less wind resistance then a floating line so the intermediate/sinking line flies needs less grains. 

Some people find the above true and to some people it makes no difference.

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Larry Aiuppy

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Reply with quote  #7 

"I find a Snap T or Z works better than the Circle C as it produces less pronounced bloody L to straighten out during the fwd cast."

Barny, this sentence, quoting from your posting of January 29 (#3), has me scratching my head in puzzlement.

A "bloody L" is universally recognized among competent Spey casting instructors as a "fault" (mistake, error) in casting. Any of the three casts you mention (Snap T, Snap Z or Circle C), if properly executed, would not result in the formation of a "bloody L." Yet, your sentence clearly states that when you make any of these casts you get a "bloody L" of one size or another to straighten out. This should not be happening.

Interestingly, on a closely related note, when I teach Spey casting to neophytes, I teach the Circle or Circle C cast (as it is sometimes called), as the easiest cast to avoid forming a bloody L, and a poorly executed Snap T as the most likely of the three aforementioned casts to create a bloody L situation. Because of this, the Snap T is one of the very last casts I teach in a typical clinic, and the Circle Cast one of the first.


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Rick Jorgensen

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Reply with quote  #8 
I am thinking what Barny is suggesting is a snap, if you just raise the rod tip as it is pointing downstream and snap it back down will bring the fly upstream but will generally end just upstream of you.

No matter which cast - snap or circle the leader and fly end up facing up stream and it requires the sweep out and around to bring it in line with the target. If your circle is throwing your anchor farther upstream than just snapping the rod tip up and down, this will require more of a pronounced sweep to realign in the direction of your cast.

at least for the short skagits I do not find that anchor placement is as critical (though still important) as you are dealing with such a short section on the water that the sweep generally pulls it all into alignment at the end, no matter where the anchor starts out at
James D Jones

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Reply with quote  #9 
Not that I can, am, nor will be offering any answers, just something to think about.

If you subscribe to the school of thought that in Skagit, sustained anchor casting, the tip being allowed to sink to a certain degree is your anchor, then the next critical line of thought is how much do you allow it to sink, and to what degree does alignment play in the cast?

Therefore, all casts, with the possible exception of the Perry Poke, will need to pull that sunken anchor in line with the D-loop. Otherwise, you end up with a corkscrew in the cast.

It is one thing to pull a floating or lightly sunk tip and fly into alignment. It is quite another to reposition a more heavily sunk tip. This, obviously, requires more power to accomplish said task. We have learned from the Jedi's who have come before us, methods of extracting this power other than simply resorting to bigger rods. To quote one such master, "how can I make the rod do more of the work, so I don't have to?"

Floating, intermediate sink, full sink, sink tip? Time? Technique? Rod action? Fun stuff. [idea]
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