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Douglas Anderson

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Reply with quote  #1 
I am looking for the following dimensions of an Abel Spey reel spool:

  1) The outside diameter of the spool's flange next to the drag spring. Should be less than 4".
  2) The arbor diameter.
  3) The inside width of the spool flanges at the outer edge.
  4) The inside width of the spool flanges at the arbor diameter (if obtainable).

These dimensions are necessary to determine the available volume for backing and spey line.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Doug
Poppy Cummins

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Reply with quote  #2 
1.=3 5/8"

2.=3/4"+ (25/32")

3.=1"

4.=13/16"

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Poppy=Red Shed Spey Rod Pimp http://www.redshedflyshop.com FRSCA-Founding Member How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
Douglas Anderson

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Reply with quote  #3 
Poppy,
Thanks so much. The dimensions you gave me are exactly what I need.

Thanks again,
Doug
Gene Larson

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Reply with quote  #4 
I'd be real interested in seeing the math on this.  I can look up how to figure the volume of two cylinders, but just knowing the available volume doesn't tell be how much backing and line it will hold.  
Poppy Cummins

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Reply with quote  #5 
Here's the right amount for a 54' 7/8, 8/9, or 9/10 full spey line. 161130-234452.jpg 

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Poppy=Red Shed Spey Rod Pimp http://www.redshedflyshop.com FRSCA-Founding Member How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
Douglas Anderson

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Reply with quote  #6 
Hi Gene and Poppy,

It has taken me a while to get my thoughts and measurements together for this post.

The basic equation for the volume of a rectangular cross section of revolution is:

       V=(Pi/4) X (Do^2 - Di^2) X W
     where: V= volume of cylinder
                Pi= 3.14
                Do=Outer diameter of cylinder (OD)
                Do^2= OD squared= Do X Do
                Di= Inner diameter of cylinder (ID)
                Di^2= ID squared= Di X Di
                W= width of cylinder, also width between spool flanges

The volume of a spool with straight sides can accurately be found with the above equation. When the spool has sloping sides, the cross section becomes a trapezoid and the exact volume calculation becomes a little more complicated. Fortunately, an approximation using an average width in the above equation yields a reasonable answer. The error using the Abel spey spool was about 2% with the error being below the true answer.

The amount of volume that you calculate using the spool's parameters is the maximum amount of line and backing that you can put on a spool. This is not the useable volume. You need some radial clearance between the line and the spool's frame to avoid damage to your line (~1/8" radial clearance minimum). Calculating the useable volume is easy, knowing the spool's minimum flange diameter. 

Calculating volumes of lines, backing and heads is also quite easy. Using spare straight sided backing or line spools, load the backing or line on the spool and measure Do, Di and W. Try to load your backing with some tension, because a loose packing condition will lead to a positive error in your answer.

I have measured backing and found for 100 yards of tightly wound:

  Cortland Saltwater Micron 30# ..........  2.3 in^3/
  Scientific Anglers XTS Gelspun 30#.....  0.5 in^3/

I have measured lines and found :
  CND GPS 7/8  ..................................4.4 in^3
  AirFlo Delta 7/8 full line .....................5.0 in^3
  Gaelforce Equalizer 7/8 63' head ........4.5 in^3

  AirFlo Delta 8/9 full line .....................6.0 in^3
  Gaelforce Equalizer 8/9 63' head .........4.8 in^3
  Ballistic Vector XL 9/10 70' head .........5.5 in^3

Now you have some rough parameters for backing and lines. The missing part is the amount of usable volume on the spool. I am attaching a file of spey reel data that should help to start your data base.
 http://www.perhokalastajat.net/keskustelu/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20457
If the above web site can not be accessed in this post, PM me with your email address.

If you send me your email address, I can return my personal Excel file of reel data. I can not seem to attach it in this post.

Poppy's picture posted above will be used for an example. The Abel Spey reel spool has a maximum volume of about 9 in^3 using Poppy's posted dimensions. I scaled the backing outer diameter from the photo as 2.2". This resulted in a backing volume of 2.76 in^3. The length of backing would be about 120 yards ( 2.76/2.3 X 100= ~120) if we used 30# braided dacron. If we installed an AirFlo Delta 7/8 line with its volume of 5 in^3, the total volume on the spool is 7.76 in^3. Now we have to solve for the resulting outer diameter of the line using the arbor diameter and average spool width. The outer diameter is 3.39" and that results in a radial outer clearance of 0.12" at the spool's minimum outer flange diameter. The outer flange diameter  is very close to the reel's cage inner diameter. Placing the Delta 8/9 line (volume= ~6 in^3) on the spool using the existing 2.76 in^3 of backing volume resulted in the line being too close to the cage. Either my scaling is incorrect or my measurements of the 8/9 Delta were too generous, because Poppy said a 54' 8/9 does fit. 

The volume method does work, but you have to measure the backing after it has been tightly wound either on the reel or a spare spool.  Being an engineer, I programmed the volume equation into an HP calculator that will solve for any missing variable. The same result can be obtained using a basic hand calculator after the missing variable has been isolated from the equation. Solving for either diameter or width requires the isolation by rearranging the equation.

I hope this helps and if there are any questions, please ask me through the PM or posting options.

Doug




Dennis Kulhanek

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Reply with quote  #7 

Equcation are good. But there is much simpler method for any reel and line to calculate backing capacity. Save some of bubble packing and cut it for width  of your reel. Attach it with masking tape to arbor of reel and wind the bubble tape on the reel More is bether you can always cut but not ad. Wind your line on the reel and cutting the bubble tape when your line is about 1 quarter inch from reel frame spool support. Mark it with tape or ink pen on the out side of spool. Remove the bubble tape and install your favorite backing. When you reach the mark cut the backing of and remove another 30 feet of. Attach the fly line and you are done. This work for any reel small or big, narrow ,or wide.


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Douglas Anderson

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Reply with quote  #8 
Hi Dennis,

What a novel idea! This is an easy way to apply backing to an existing line and spool. 

My 'Volume Method' gives the tools to the reader to shop for another reel (upgrade from Poppy?) by knowing in advance what spool volume is required. Also, my method can be used to find the diameter to stop applying backing to an existing spool (same objective as your method with bubble wrap). I admit that my method is not a true exact science, because there is always the variable of 'spool packing density'. What my suggested method does give is the advantage of predicting how a specific line will occupy a given spool and roughly how much backing can be added. Unfortunately, you either need to measure the volume of an existing line or use a published value of a line's volume from my list to get started. After that, you have to either measure your existing reel's volume or go to a published list of reel volumes. My post above was intended to give the reader a head start, but you should confirm the volume of your own lines or running lines plus heads to be certain of your data.

Doug
Gene Larson

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Reply with quote  #9 
I followed the bubble tape method until this sentence, "Wind your line on the reel and cutting the bubble tape when your line is about 1 quarter inch from reel frame spool support. " then I got lost.  How do I cut the bubble tape which is now covered by fly line?  
Dennis Kulhanek

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Reply with quote  #10 
Off course you have to unwind the line. When you start winding the line it become obvious that there may be too much of the tape. Use your judgment how much tape you have to remove. It help to have assistant to pull the line and lay it on the ground that when start winding line back to prevent line twist. Should not take more than ten minutes. It help to have backing on hand that you finish winding backing and line in one time. Biggest problems are that line weights have different diameters and length. Douglas method is very good but in real fishing scenario frantic line retrieve no one is sure how the line wind back on the reel even when you guide it with the finger .It may cross itself wind to the side some times tight or loose. It may not be good method for every one but it works for me.
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